Dong-Won Kim on Science Fiction in South and North Korea

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A podcast on political, economic, and social issues from the perspective of the Korean peninsula.

Star Wars and Star Trek are among the highest-grossing movie franchises worldwide.

Yet, they usually do not feature among the most successful films released in South Korea.

This illustrates a larger trend.

Science fiction, may be in the form of movies or books, is not particularly popular in South Korea.

In contrast to that, North Korea has a rich tradition of science fiction.

To hear more about how the perception and role of science fiction differ in the two Korean states, we had the pleasure of interviewing Professor Kim Dong-won.

He told us about the conceptions of technology, society, and the future that underpin science fiction in South and North Korea, and about how the works of science fiction produced in the two countries differ from each other.

Dong-won Kim is lecturer in Science, Technology, and Society at the University of Pennsylvania.

He obtained his bachelor's degree from Seoul National University and his master's and PhD from Harvard University's Department of the History of Science.

Previously, he was dean of the College of Cultural Science at KAIST in South Korea, visiting professor at Harvard University and the National University of Singapore, as well as Johns Hopkins University.

Professor Kim Dong-won, welcome to Korea and the world.

Today, we want to talk about science fiction in Korea.

What got you interested in this topic?

I love the science fiction when I was a very young.

And when I was a high school students, I was fascinated by Star Wars movies.

So I went to the movie theater when I was a senior at high school and watched it, and I was immediately fascinated by the movie.

Then I became the Star Wars fan.

And I soon became the also Star Trek fan.

Unfortunately, no South Korean TV broadcasting company broadcasted Star Trek.

So I should watch it instead AFKN, American Forces Korean Network.

They broadcast Star Trek original, and later in the 1990s, they broadcast Star Trek Next Generation.

In 2015 and 2016, two new Star Wars movies were released worldwide.

Both made it into the top 20 of the financially most successful movies ever.

In South Korea, however, neither of them made it even onto the top 50 most successful movies.

As you argue, this is an example that represents a broader trend.

I already told you in private, I mean any Korean South Koreans love Hollywood movie in general, but there are some exceptions.

Any movie, any Hollywood movies with the word Star in their titles had never been so popular in South Korea.

That includes Star Wars as well as Star Trek movies.

So that was not surprising for me.

In fact, South Koreans has never paid any serious attention to science fiction, science fiction novels, science fiction movies.

There are very few science fiction writers in South Korea.

Only from the mid-1990s, there were some South Korean writers who regularly produce science fiction short stories and medium-length science fiction novels.

And very few science fiction movies were made, but their qualities were in general very bad.

At the same time, among the most successful movies of a screen South Korea are Avatar, Snowpiercer, and Interstellar, all of which are arguably science fiction.

Does this mean that your argument focuses on a a specific flavor of science fiction?

Yes, Koreans love Avatar, Snowpiercer, as well as Interstellar, and that was surprising for me.

And when I first watched those three movies, I guessed that they would fail, but they become very successful in South Korea.

For example, for Avatar, South Koreans are fascinated by 3D technology in the movies rather than its content.

And for Snowpiercer, South Koreans claim that it was South Korean movies, but I don't agree with them.

And for Interstellar, it was really surprising.

South Koreans really watched it and enjoyed the Interstellar.

Perhaps I misused the word enjoy.

Many South Koreans watched Interstellar because they believe that movie is very helpful for their children to make interest in science, to get better scores in science tests rather than to become scientists or engineers.

And the Interstellar also emphasized the love between father and daughter, the family love.

That was a very strange theme in science fiction movies from the point of view of Western science fiction movies.

But that's the reason why so many South Koreans love Interstellar.

And I think the reason is same for Chinese.

China became number two in the world who watched it Interstellar following the United States.

You just mentioned China.

Is this a general trend in East Asia that science fiction is just not that popular?

As you know, China was somewhat closed for many decades.

So it is not well known whether the Chinese in the mainland had been interested in the science fiction or not.

But according to some histories, Chinese paid a lot of attention to science fiction from the beginning of the 20th centuries.

But their interest in science fiction almost died during the Cultural Revolution, but emerged again from the beginning of 1980s.

Now science fiction is flourished in the 21st century China.

Science fiction has been very popular in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and the Chinese-speaking countries in Southeast Asia.

What about Japan?

Oh, Japan was has been an exceptional case.

In Japan, science fiction flourished even before the 20th centuries.

The first Japanese translated Western science fiction classics from the late 19th century, and first Japanese science fiction writer began to appear from the early 1930s.

So after that, science fiction flourished, especially after 1945. Japanese the met Western science fiction with paperbacks American GI brought Astro Boy and many animation flourished in the 1960s and 1970s.

And a good example was Mazinger Z.

It was exported all East Asian countries including South Korea, and it was popular in South American countries.

You argue in your writings that the low popularity of science fiction in South Korea can be explained by two factors.

One of them is a certain Confucianist prejudice against science and the scientists.

Could you elaborate on that?

In pre-modern period, very few Korean intellectuals paid any serious attention or interest in science and technology.

Neo-Confucianism emphasized only humanities education, not science and technology.

And the fate of the ceramic artisans is a very good example.

Even though South Koreans celebrate to creating producing fine ceramics, which are displayed in any good museums in the world, we don't know who made it because the ceramic artisans in the pre-modern period had no names,

no records about them.

They were almost in the slavery status.

They had no right to move, they had no right to choose their jobs.

They were virtually slaves for their whole lives.

So when the last Joseon government abolished this caste system in the late 19th century, they simply disappeared.

And even today in the 21st century, the lives and works of ceramic artisans are in general almost unknown to South Koreans.

They pay attention to ceramic from the point of view of art history, not from the point of view of technologies.

So if I had a chance to born again, I would like to study the technology of Korean ceramic artisans.

Confucianism is not only found in Korea, but also in Japan and China.

Why don't we see the same legacies of Confucianism in regards to science fiction there?

Yeah, you are right.

Confucianism is widely spread in all East Asian countries, but each country adopted very different forms of Confucianism.

In Korean case, in my opinion, Confucianism, especially during the Joseon Dynasty, Confucianism was like a religion and very strong ideology.

Japanese considered Confucianism from the point of view of practical views.

So in Edo period in Japan, Confucian scholars played the role of advisers for shogun or military leaders.

In Korea, Confucian scholars ruled the country.

So that was a big difference.

You may say that China has a very similar tradition with Korea.

But even in China, Confucianism had own somewhat limited power compared with Korea, especially during the Joseon Dynasty.

It dominated all aspects of Korean lives.

To quote you, South Koreans do not have any positive image of science and technology and also not familiar with ideas like exploration or the future.

Yet, at the same time, South Korea seems very proud of its past scientific research and technical achievements.

For example, turtle ships or inventing metal movable type press in the early 13th century.

More recently, South Korea has developed a reputation of technological powerhouse with companies like Samsung and LG.

Why this disconnect?

That's a very good question.

You mentioned turtle ship and movable types, and history books indicate some names in the case of movable type.

There was some names connected with the movable type.

And my guess is the names in the history document is not actually the technicians who invented them, but the managers who managed the whole project.

Same can be applied to the turtle ship case.

We celebrate Admiral Yi Sun-sin to use turtle ship to destroy the invading Japanese fleet.

But we don't know who actually built the turtle ship, the artisans or technicians who actually built the turtle ship.

And this kind of thing repeated to the case of Samsung and the LG case.

We celebrate the CEO Lee I-jung-chul, but we seldom mention the names of the engineers who actually participate in the semiconductor industries.

So that's one of the subject what I would like to study, who actually worked on the success of a semiconductor in Samsung and LG in the late 20th century.

We pay more attention to the effort of Korean engineers rather than the leaders.

I mean, in this case, the CEO or the managers.

We must pay more attention to technicians and as well as engineers.

But even in the 21st century, even for historians of technology ignore them.

Beyond science fiction, do you see South Korea's attitude focused more on the application of knowledge rather than the discovery of the unknown, pushing the boundaries of knowledge itself?

Yes, that's true.

Even in the 21st century, most South Koreans consider science and technology as just a tool to make them richer and the stronger rather than to seek the secret of natures.

But this kind of attitude does not apply to only South Koreans.

Japanese in the beginning of Meiji period had the same attitude toward the science and technology.

And it took almost three generation to change their attitude to science and technology and pay more attention to seek the knowledge itself.

So if we have another two or three generation, I think the South Koreans may pay more attention to the basic knowledge rather than applicability of science and technology.

Going into a bookstore in South Korea, you can find numerous book about Albert Einstein and other famous scientists.

Does that mean there is a difference between the Korean population and the Korean academic field?

That's a good point.

But you mentioned Einstein, and you may also find many theoreticians, the biography of theoreticians like the Heisenberg and others famous physicists or biologists.

But there were very few books on, for example, engineers.

There were very few books on even for experimental physicists.

I actually look up the biography of Michael Faraday, but there was none.

But if you searched it amazon.com, you can find at least two dozens of the biographies or similar things, similar books in amazon.com's website.

But that was not true for South Korean university Yes, yes.

It changed rapidly.

When I was a college students at the turn of the 1980s, theoretical science, theoretical fields dominated, and some fields related with experiment, I'm sorry to use this word,

were despised.

And even South Korean scientists themselves considers something theoretical is superior to something experimental.

But it changed rapidly at the turn of the 21st century.

And now experimental science flourished.

But popular image was still very different.

Popular image of science, ordinary South Koreans consider something theoretical is much superior to something experimental or something applicable.

Is it thus a fair assessment to say that in academia, we are leaving the theoretical in favor of the practice, just like the regular Korean population focuses on?

Yeah, but the trend is the changing very rapidly at the turn of the 21st century.

The brilliant success of the semiconductor industry as well as the popularity of nanoscience changes the South Korean science and engineering communities.

Now more scientists or engineers at the university or the research institute are working on very practical subject rather than something theoretical.

That's a good sign, but I must emphasize the balance between the two.

We must maintain the balance between practice and theory rather than emphasize one side only.

Coming back to science fiction, the second factor you used to explain its lack of success in South Korea is the absence of exchange between scientists and writers and artists.

Could you tell us more about that?

Yes, I interviewed some science fiction writers as well as scientists, engineers, and I discovered there were virtually no communication between the two groups.

If there were no communication between the science fiction writers and scientists and engineers, how can or how could science fiction writer produce the serious and interesting science fiction?

From the point of view of science fiction writers, mostly from the humanities educational background, they were and they are somewhat afraid of science and technologies.

And from the point of view of scientists and engineers, the science fiction is not related to their business.

From their point of view, their job is so serious.

I always ridiculed of South Korean scientists and engineers, you don't know how to enjoy doing science.

But if they don't know how to enjoy doing science, why do they pay attention to science fictions?

And only they learn how to enjoy doing science, they may become more creative as well as they may enjoy science fiction, and they may cooperate with science fiction writers to create better and more interesting science fiction in South Korea.

To quote your writing once again,

South Korean scientists and engineers have lived and worked in a world apart from Korean culture, society, and literature.

Couldn't a similar argument be made about the insularity of scientists in most countries?

No, that's not true.

Look at what happened in the United States.

Here scientists and historically scientists and engineers are part of the larger intellectual communities, but that was not true in South Korea.

In South Korea, when you say intellectual or in Korean chishikin, that did not include scientists or engineers.

They were categorized in different terms like kwahak kisulin.

So, if the intellect South Korean intellectuals made petition to the government or made some kind of the demonstration against some government policies, artisans or the writers,

even actors and actresses or dancers signed the petitions or participate in the demonstration, but you cannot find any serious scientists and engineers in those groups.

They were historically and socially somewhat separated.

There are many different interpretations why South Korean scientists and engineers were considered separately.

I do not want to talk about more about this so sensitive subject.

As you mentioned, there is science fiction actually produced in Korea.

And based on the influences you just told us about, you outlined several characteristics you see, for example, in science fiction novels written here.

Could you summarize these for us?

There are some distinctive characteristics of South Korean science fiction, as far as I know.

The first characteristic is most of South Korean science fiction provide very pessimistic view of the futures.

I mean, and so the end of the novel always the end of the universe or the end of the Earth.

And second characteristic of South Korean science fiction is they pay less attention to new imaginary science or technology.

Instead, many South Korean science fiction novels paid a lot of attention to psychic or ghost-related stories.

And third characteristic of South Korean science fiction is most actors are Korean.

That's understandable, but most settings in their novels are someplace in South Korea.

I found this some novels even mentioned specific street names or COEX, remnant of COEX in the 23rd or 24th centuries.

In other words, in South Korean science fiction, aliens came to Korea to meet Korean people rather than South Koreans went to the space to meet the aliens.

The last characteristic of South Korean science fiction is the issues in the works are just a repetition of present issues like the environmental pollution or over-dominance of conglomerate or the or the big government.

Your characterization of South Korean science fiction implies that Koreans generally don't look beyond the present, beyond their country's borders, and equate the unknown not with an unknown potential,

but rather with an unknown threats.

Is that correct?

And do you believe these hallmarks of Korean science fiction mirror a certain aspect of Korean society?

Yeah, you are right.

I think one of the reason why most South Koreans, including science fiction writers, do not imagine the far distant future is that they are not familiar with the word future.

If you are not familiar with the idea of future, how can you imagine the future society?

So, science fiction writers just repeated the same stories in the 23rd or 24th century with some additions of high-tech.

So, even though they have the robot to serve them in the 23rd century house, they still eat kimchi jjigae, chatting with their friends in the same tones.

They do not imagine the society where their words and their lifestyles are totally changes according to the advancement of science and technology.

They have never considered that kind of things.

With this in mind, is the popularity of historical TV shows and movies the other side of the same coin?

And do South Koreans prefer to look at their past rather than their future?

Yes, once again, I would like to emphasize the influence of Confucianism.

Confucianism is basically for the status quo and its utopia lies in the past, not in the future.

I mean, South Koreans pay more attention or interest to the past rather than to the future.

And one good example is the six-volume novels by Bok Ko-il.

It's about the story about time travel and a Korean in the late 21st century accidentally arrive in the late 16th century while he was traveling to the past.

The original idea is that he is going back to millennium some millennium ago, but he accidentally arrive in the late 16th century Korea.

And in the beginning, he tried not to touch the timeline, but he naturally was involved in the incident there, and he made up his mind to change the history of Joseon to prepare the invasion from Japan.

This kind of plot is more familiar subject for most South Koreans rather than to imagine the society 300 years later, the 21st century, which was nicely described in the Star Trek Next Generation.

So, that is one of the reason why Star Trek Next Generation or Star Trek series are not so popular in South Korea even in the 21st century.

Is this a generational phenomena?

And is the youth more open to science fiction and science in general?

In fact, I can detect some changes, even though very slight change.

There was some slight change in the new generation, I mean younger generation in the 2010s.

But it takes time.

We South Koreans have been familiar with Confucianism and the emphasis on the past for the last 2,000 years.

It's very difficult to change your mind and your your mindset in just a one generation or two.

For example, I became interested in the image of study, gongbu, and ask myself, what is the image of gongbu in South Korea?

For most South Koreans, the image of study or gongbu is study books, read books, and memorize books.

We have been familiar with this image of gongbu for 2,000 years, to read and memorize the book which were mostly imported from China.

So, to change the image of gongbu from just read and memorize the book to practice, experience, takes time.

If you have two or three more generation, I guess, I hope South Korean youngsters will enjoy reading and watching science fiction.

You contrast the low popularity of science fiction with how the genre fares on the other side of the border, in North Korea.

How is science fiction received there?

Surprisingly, science fiction has been very popular in North Korea from the very beginning.

Nowadays, many South Koreans simply forget that North Korea is a communist countries.

Communist country following the Russian um Soviet Union's example always emphasized the importance of science fiction.

And North Korea was not an exception in this case.

So, from the very beginning, North Korean regime supported the science and technology as well as science fiction, especially after the Korean War, Kim Il-sung's regime enthusiastically supported the translating Russian as well as the Western science fiction classics into Korean languages.

South Korean government did not do such such an effort at the same time.

Is there anyone in particular or any group in particular we can identify that is responsible for this popularity of science fiction in North Korea?

As I told you, North Korean regime supported the translating Russian or Western science fiction classics into Korean after the end of the Korean War, but it was Kim Jong-il who actually promoted science fiction in North Korea,

not Kim Il-sung.

Kim Il-sung mentioned the science fiction only once or twice in his life, but Kim Jong-il mentioned and supported enthusiastically supported science fiction from the beginning of 1960s.

And after he became responsible for the whole activities of the arts or and writing or literature, he paid a lot of attention to science fiction.

In North Korea following Russian example, they call science fiction as science fantasy.

And he actually read many North Korean science fantasy novels, and he evaluated one by one.

So, science fiction flourished in North Korea in the 1970s and 1980s and thereafters, even in the 21st centuries.

And one good example in the 21st century is the most prestigious literary journal Choson Munha began to publish science fiction short stories regularly from the beginning of 21st century.

Of course, the number of science fiction novels in that journal is still small, but nonetheless, it's very important this most prestigious and authoritative literature journal began to publish science fiction.

Nothing comparable happened in South Korea.

What are the characteristics of North Korean science fiction?

That's a very interesting question.

There are some notable characteristics of North Korean science fiction.

The first one is all North Korean science fiction provide optimistic view of the future.

That's a big contrast with South Korean science fiction.

The second characteristic is they pay, I mean North Korean science fiction novels and also the films pay more attention and interest in new imaginary science and technology.

And they never mention any psychic power and they never mention any ghost-related stories.

And third characteristic of North Korean science fiction is that there are a lot of expeditions to the space, different countries, and even under the sea.

I pay special attention to the undersea exploration.

There was no science fiction novels in South Korea which deals with undersea exploration.

But in North Korean science fiction, there are many.

The last characteristic of North Korean science fiction is that there are some strong emphasis on political agenda, like patriotism, utilitarian view of science and technology, and socialism over capitalism,

especially emphasis on some Korean tradition or Korean values.

How do you explain these striking differences between North Korean and South Korean science fiction literature?

I think the most important reason for these differences, in South Korea, the dominant ideology from the point of view of science fiction is still Confucianism.

Confucianism somewhat restricted the imaginary power of science fiction writers.

But in North Korea, it was communism.

They officially, I mean North Korea officially eradicated Confucianism and any feudal systems in 1945, 1946. And communism emphasized the development of science and technology for the development of their own society.

So, in South Korea before 1961, the government or the people pay little attention to the development of science and technology.

But in North Korea, they paid a lot of attention to the development of science and technology from 1945. So, that's a big difference.

For the development of science and technology, North Korean regime believed that science fiction must be a very useful tool to encourage especially youngsters to enter the field of science and technology.

So, they supported the development to science fiction in the government level.

But even today in the 21st century, there was no such government level support for science fiction in South Korea.

You just mentioned that there are also similarities.

What are they?

The most important and interesting similarity between the two countries is that they paid little attention to the future.

I already explained how South Koreans pay little attention to the future, but same is true for North Koreans.

Even though they described future optimistic, but their future is just a repetition of the present.

They wear the same clothes in the futuristic science fiction.

They eat the same food in the futuristic society.

So, basically the science fiction in North Korea is a some kind of political tool to mesmerize North Koreans to provide them with the better society in the future.

And in terms of the conduct of science in North Korea, do we see the same trends as we see in South Korea, namely a focus on application over theory?

Actually, the North Korean regime from the very beginning emphasized the utility of science and technology rather than emphasis on theory, especially after the Juche ideology became the dominant ideology from the mid-1960s,

there was no exceptions.

Of course, there are some studies, some research is on serial side going on, but North Korean scientists and engineers paid a lot of attention to practical use of science and technology compared with South Koreans from the very early period.

Isn't it somewhat surprising that the nation that is generally assumed to be technologically backward seems to appreciate science fiction, whereas a modern high-tech society like that of South Korea shows little interest in it?

That's a very interesting question, and I actually would like to know the answer for your questions, but I only observe that this kind of big gap between image and reality in those two countries.

In South Korea, the image of South Korea is a high-tech.

Samsung Electronics, the cell phone, and the Hyundai Motors, the automobile represent South Korea in the world in the 21st century.

But how about the reality in South Korea?

In South Korea, the science and technology still considered as something foreign, not as a part of Korean cultures.

And so there was a big gap between the image of science and technology in the world and the reality of science and technology within Korea.

And similar but a little bit different to gap between the image and the reality exists in North Korea.

The image of science and technology in North Korea is very positive and very good from the very beginning.

And North Korean regime paid a lot of attention to promote science fiction in North Korea.

But how about the realities?

I'm just curious what do North Koreans feel when they were forced to read North Korean science fiction?

Because in those novels, they were very happy owing to the advancement of science and technology in the future society.

But how about the realities?

The poverties, the malnutritions.

If you are very hungry, but in your school you are forced to read science fictions, what do you feel?

So that's the gap between image and reality in North Korea.

Earlier, you mentioned the role that Kim Jong-il had played in actually watching and reading science fiction and then passing on to the people.

Is there anything similar going on in South Korea?

That's a very good point.

My answer is no.

As far as I know, no South Korean president publicly mentions the science fiction in their speech or the writings.

But as I mentioned, in North Korea, Kim Jong-il mentions the importance of science fiction many times in his public speech as well as writings.

In South Korea, South Korean president Kim Young-sam, Kim Dae-jung, or No Muh-hyun, or others, they watched Korean movie which described the historical heroes or the something Korean,

something traditional Korean like Sopyonje or Myeongnyang, but not Star Wars or Star Trek or Avatar.

So what a big difference between the two countries.

Let's conclude by looking at the future.

Do you see the role and popularity of science fiction changing in either North or South Korea?

That's a big guess.

I think as long as North Korea remains a communist country, science fiction will flourish.

In South Korea, it's very difficult to predict because still the Confucian value dominate the South Korean society.

But I hopefully guess the situation will change sooner or later.

And I found that the some young generations pay some attention to Star Wars, Star Trek, or other science fictions.

Maybe we must wait two or three generations.

Professor Kim Dong-won, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you very much.

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